Grammar Mishaps: Farther vs. Further
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Farther versus Further
Throughout history, farther and further have been used interchangeably. Even the Merriam-Webster Dictionary states that the words are interchangeable; they are the inflected form of far. It is not until recent history that they are becoming distinguished by grammarians.
Farther
Farther shows a relation to physical distance. If you can replace the word farther with "more miles" then you have done it correctly.
- Our car drove farther than I thought it would on one tank of gas.
- I wanted to run farther, but I became too exhausted.
- Our house is farther away from the restaurant than yours.
Further
Further relates to metaphorical distance or depth. It is a time, degree, or quantity. It is also another way of saying "additional".
- I asked that there be further discussion on the matter.
- I need to look further into the logistics of moving farther from my office building.
- I hope that gas prices drop further for our road trip vacation.
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Yes, thanks for the comment!
I'd disagree with you here. They always have been interchangeable and always will be in practice. Some usage manuals have argued otherwise, but they have no basis for it usage or logic, in my opinion.
I was taught the same way you were, Robin. But I suspect the distinction has pretty well disappeared outside the ranks of English professors as is the case with many other nice distinctions.
Another of my pet peeves is the NY Times and some other publications' insistence on punctuating plural numbers with an apostrophe "s" as if they were possessives. For example, the 1990's was a period of prosperity instead of 1990s. I can see no logical reason to use an apostrophe in this case. Anybody else?
I agree! In Britain it is no longer customary to use apostrophes in plural numbers (1990s) or in abbreviations (CDs), but we're a little behind on changing this rule here in America. I prefer to leave the apostrophe out in these instances, even though some may think it's incorrect. It just makes me cringe to use it. I'm glad that I'm not alone on this matter!
Another fairly common mistake which I heard just last night on the ABC "docudrama" is using "hone" (sharpen) when the correct word is "home" (as in homing pigeon). One of the characters was talking about a drone honing in on a target or something to that effect.
Our language - the specifics of correct grammatical usage, is going FARTHER and FARTHER away from its former correctness; hence, I hope many will try to use words as they were intended. "Farther" only relates to "far" - i.e., distance. The rest is all about "further" and its various usages. This comes from a retired English teacher - so may have some value for you. :)
Thanks Pam! I agree completely. I like they way you explained it, very clear. Please feel free to add any grammar hubs that strike your fancy. ;) Robin
OMG Robin and you're and an English Teacher. It's funny my grammar is terrible which is why I don't punctuate. So far I've gotten by on content (thank god). Most people like what my poetry is saying not getting to technical about the structure and grammer...but you could (smile) and you haven't. Thanks for liking my picture anyway.
I'm sorry, I mean't thank you for liking my poetry any way. (Oops)
I think I'm too blown away by your prose to notice your grammar. You have grammatical poetic license! You are legit!! Do you have any short stories you are willing to share? I'd love to read them!
I've just realised, after writing in a hub "further information", that I couldn't use "farther" in that context...
So, is it fair comment that there are occasions when "futher" is used metaphorically that you can't replace it with "farther" but that, in common usage anyway, many use "further" for distance?
Or am I confusing the business more? I'm afraid that I have gotten into the habit of using "further" for distance myself. But sometimes rules like this are useful for learners when Native speakers can get away with breaking them.
Interesting. I don't think you should use "farther information" either. I think most people use "further" more than "farther" in sentences. I feel for second language learners. English is such a difficult language to learn; especially since there are so many rules that are not agreed upon. Farther and further are a perfect example of this incongruity. Thanks for bringing up this distinction and for the comment!
Yep, now I've got to edit another one of my hubs! LOL! Thanks, Robin. Great hub.
Ha! Sorry about that, but actually this is one you could leave and it would be fine by some accounts. I just prefer the distinction ;)
I am afraid that 'farther' can not replace 'further' in your examples, whereas 'further' can replace 'farther'.
'Farther' may suffer from its identical pronunciation to 'father' in BE; I at any rate seem to manage with 'further'/'furthest' in all cases where I need to use a derivative of 'far'. My childhood usage even extended to 'furtherest' I seem to recall.
Harzer
Thanks for the comments, Harzer. "Further/farther" is a distinction some choose to use and some don't. I do not think they should be used interchangeably. "Farther" should be used to convey distance, "further" to convey everything else.
Why wouldn't you use "farther/farthest" when using a derivative of "far" instead of "further/furthest"? I do not believe that "furtherest" is a word; you can say "furthest" though.
Thanks for the comments!
Robin
I think Robin looks a lot like Britney Spears... does anyone else think alike?
Hmmm, well I hope the former Brittney Spears and not the present one. Thanks for the compliment...I think. ;)
I am editing a document that concerns individuals who deliver educational programs in outdoor settings in different areas of the nation. One statement in the document is written as follows: "Participants in roles further from the field tended to encourage a softer approach and more incremental expectations in an attempt to mitigate anxieties regarding time."
Although this could be referrring to people who are physically distant from those working in the field, I am guessing that the author may be making a reference (on purpose or not) to the familiar phrase "further afield." I was tempted to replace "further" with "farther," but I am now leaning towards leaving it the way it is, assuming the author did not really infer physical distance.
dtl,
I agree, I think that "further" is the correct usage. I'm glad the hub may have helped!
Robin, I don't want to be picky, but in an earlier post you said "I would error on the side of..." I just wanted to let you know that "error" is not a verb-- I think you meant "to err".
Just trying to be helpful!
Kyle,
Thanks! You were right, a mistake on my part. Thanks for the catch!! ;)
Stuart J,
The Merriam-Webster agrees with you as well (the link is above), but many grammarians do not. Personally, I would err on the side of being more specific and find a distinction between the two. It's up to you. Thanks for the comment!
How about "more" in the context of "further information." "More miles" almost fits inthe context of Farther, too, but not quite.
My opinion, "farther" is a distance distinction, further is, mmmmm, a philisophical and/or metaphysical measure. Anyone?
I'm a grammar teacher. Everything just got more confusing! Hehehe. How can I explain this to my student?
THANK YOU. Your/You're hubs on/upon grammar should/ought be required reading in/during school.
Seriously, though, if not in school, then most definitely a prereq to writing hubs.
You are definitely doing a public service with your grammar articles :) Good stuff.
Farther isn't actually an English word. We always use 'further'. 'Farther' is only a word in American-english
Just what the grammar doctor ordered!
I do understand how to use them, buuutt ...
farther comes from more far , so we should never say more farther. If farther has the same form as further , why do we say further more ? is it the same if i say further and further more ?
i hope i am clear enough , english is my second language.
Robin , btw , its not that hard to learn english , it might be the easiest one . At least to get to understand it and speak it. If you want to go FURTHER it may be harder.
"I believe that farther work is required on that document." Hmmmmm!! Sounds odd to me. I agree with your definition above. Further, deponent sayeth not.
juice it was a good argumentlement
what do you think taste better cake or pie?
This was quite interesting, I was hoping that you would branch off into other words on this hub like affect and effect (i never get that one) : )
Howdy, I've one for you. My Mother, bless her soul uses, despite my constant corrections, (with love of course) the non-word FORTHER. She goes forther down the trail and that's just the way it is.
I've no further comment.
Peace
Two other misused or incorrectly-used word forms that have always annoyed me include 'bad' vs badly, as in 'I feel badly about your misfortune' vs the correct form, 'I feel bad about.......' AND
Loan vs lend. I hear newscasters and reporters discussing the Fed, for example, 'loaning' money to banks during this current financial crisis instead of using the correct form, 'lending' that money. You 'lend' money or you make a 'loan.' You don't 'loan' money.
The concept was powerful!! I really get how grammer is important farther and farther.
awesome, thanks! =D
Hi,
I'm a grammar teacher and still get confused with all this. 'The more she tried to visualise her goals the further/farther away they seemed'? Which one would you think is correct?
Seawolf31 Boy I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets annoyed when hearing presumably educated people say "lend" for "loan" or vice versa. Will you please lend me your pen? I would like to take out a loan with your bank. I hear it all the time today on TV, so and so loaned so and so something. Like fingernails on a blackboard to me.
sherry
I'll stick with the old tried and true....farther for distance and further for moreover, in addition to, etc.
This is fun. I love to learn. Even though I'm a native English speaking person, our language is hard. So many exceptions to the rule and it seems new ones are popping up all the time.
Hi, Robin =D Do you have a hub on "in behalf" vs. "on behalf"? Thanks!
Now, I was wondering, I am reading Henry IV Part 1 and I just came across a Falstaff quotation:
I'd starve ere I'll rob a foot further (2.2.22)
Would this still be considered correct in modern English grammar? Yes, it is a hypothetical distance, but it is connected with the concrete unit of "feet." What do you think?
I couldn't understand a single "sentence" NightFlower wrote. Maybe she should further her education? Not to get "to" technical...sheez, the people who call themselves writers.
Im sad to say Robin that I am a grammer serial killer! I dont mean to be but every time i put a pen to paper/key to key pad grammer blood is strewn all across the paper/key pad.I def. agree with you on the farther futher deal, however my question is, is'nt distance being used when using futher as a command?? Example: "go futher!" now "go farther" sounds good too but i was just pointing that out about further. Thanks
ah! ok
farther = distance
further = degree...duh!!!
I think that these are the types of grammar issues that are unimportant... Although I was interested in finding the "correct" usage I think that the popular usage is more important than the "correct usage". I do understand the purpose in teaching "correct" grammar but believe that it is worthless to correct (from many people's point of view) acceptable and widely used grammatical "errors".
Another example is may as in "May I go to the restroom". Although I occasional get irritated when people use can, I understand that "may" is becoming an outdated word... change happens, especially with words that can easily be dropped or replaced by similar words.
One thing that bothers me quite a bit, though, is the common usage of "your" in place of you're.
What do you guys think about Southern Californians pronouncing "height" as "height-th", are they wrong?
biff is correct ; you can further your career but you wouldn't say i farthered my career
Language changes. Someone invents a new device or process and we invent a word to describe it. What I find anoying is taking a perfectly good word and retasking it to a new use so that the old use becomes unclear. For example, 50 years ago "technology" had nothing to do with computers or electronics. You could refer to the Bessemer steel making process as a technology. If you do that today people think that it is some sort of electronic or computer process. And don't get me started on "High Technology" - what's that, a method of smoking drugs?
The words are, as adverbs, for the most part interchangeable and have always been so until grammarians decided to make them different (they are, after all, both comparatives of far). I am reminded of split infinitives. Why should it be improper to split an infinitive? No reason at all - except that 17th century grammarians, noting that in Classical languages (Greek and Latin) you can't split an infinitive (since it's a single word) decided to rule that it's wrong to do so.
I thought the word 'farther' had dropped out of usage. The last time I heard the word used was some 55 to 60 years ago - by my father.
Oh Tempora! Oh Mores! Farther/Further....There/Their....Than/Then. There are rules, traditions, customs, etc. Time blurs the lines and distinctions. Life would be simpler if new words and corresponding usages were employed following the creation. or invention of a new concept rather than adding new meanings and usages to existing words.
This is bizarre to find an "active" thread after it was started 4+ years ago. Robin, from the original postings, must be holding a school-aged child by now.
Anyway, thanks for the help with farther vs. further.
My rule of thumb for these debates is as follows: if someone can come up with a plausible usage in which a genuine ambiguity would arise from using the "incorrect" alternative, it's worth getting right. Otherwise, I don't care.
Can anyone give me a sentence in which the meaning will be made unclear if I use "further" when I'm talking about distance?
Didn't think so ;)
10b, in answer to your question, I think it is accepted even by the sticklers that "further" should be used for figurative uses.
To Chris and Pam: Grammatical rules are not pronouncements from experts; they are simply the way people speak and write, and if enough people begin to speak and write differently, the rules change.
Grammar is derived from usage, not the other way around. At least this is the attitude of modern linguists. It's a pity but many "grammatical rules" are simply the opinions or preferences of self-appointed experts from the 18 century and are not true rules (in any reasonable sense of the term) at all.
Years ago MAD Magazine did a satire on "Tarzan," who was acting as a guide for a British explorer and his daughter (both wearing pith helmets, of course). Becoming exhausted after a long trek through the jungle, the daughter exclaimed in her British accent, "I can't go a step farther!" Her dad retorted, "What do you need a stepfather for when you have me?"
I believe she used "farther" correctly, since she was speaking of distance. Then again, she could have meant "an additional step" and should have said "further," but that would have spoiled the joke!
I would also like to add that I suspect that "farther" and "further" are simply different pronunciations of the same word that evolved in different regions or groups of people, and later rules of usage were made up to account for the difference in pronunciation.
For example, some British say "clark" while Americans say "clerk." In older Bibles you will see the spelling "potsherd," but we would pronounce it "potshard," or just "shard." It may be that the same process gave us "farther" and "further."
which one is correct?
i am one day further from the last time...
i am one day farther from the last time...
Farther and farthest are American English. The original (British English) adjective far bends to further, furthest. So, use the one that is applicable to your language, don’t intertwine them.
would i say "Farther" or further" in this sentence: "i am ___ into the movie now and it is starting to make more sense"?
Great explanation. Thanks for sharing, keep up the nice work!
Now I understand. I really understand when using "further" & "farther". Thank u very much
I can't decide: Further or Farther
"Sometimes he felt, if he stretched out his hand a little FURTHER, he would find the memories in the cushions or under the rug, hard and real."
-There's no real 'traveling' going on because it's a journey of the mind. So would FURTHER be correct?
There is a great scene from Finding Forrester where the main character challenges his English professor by correcting him on his usage of farther.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA4Vj-Q3HX4
Wonderful movie, by the way.
Distance vs degree.
So which do I use when referring to depth or height?
Did anybody notice in the examples for further, the author used "farther from my office building"?
Emmy, thanks for the comment. I was demonstrating both "further" and "farther" in that sentence. ;)
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biff 5 years ago
Further can also be a verb (further one's agenda), but I don't think the same is true for farther.